XIV

Hopefully you have calmed down by, now. And we need to see if we can find a way forward. My intention with the——indef block was undetermined rather than forever and "that's subject to your being calm enough to start moving forward." Spartaz 07:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

I have no idea what I am expected to say. I certainly won't thank you for this. You've already done irreparable damage. I would obviously loath it if my AE appeal, my ultimate plea, is: archived. Because of this utterly deleterious indefinite block which frankly seems to be, the "worst wrong" on top of other "wrongs". I am a very predictable guy; I try my best to be consistent with my behaviour. My style of expression might have been changed. But I feel the same way about this block as I did few days ago. Whatever is happening is really, really unhelpful to put it very very mildly.

If you don't wish to unblock me any time soon please, I beg of you, don't let me post on this talk because ultimately it's useless to speak to deaf ears. That's the "highest level of politeness I can evince right now." I am not at all hopeful that this comment would have any effect on anyone. Mr T 08:21, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

I'm not expecting any gratitue and I don't expect grovelling either. What I want to do is find some way forward that would allow me to shorten your block. Whether/not you are happy with the block is immaterial. The issue is whether you can deal with it without the emotional outburts that made your original response so unacceptable? I'm feeling in something of a quandry because I'd like to get some second opinions. But I can't really do that without revealing your email and I'm not prepared to do that even if you agreed to it because the contents really don't reflect well on you. I'd like to see some acknowledgement that the way you responded was inappropriate and in particular some reflection on the contents of your email. The fundamental problem is whether you can change the way you react to disagreement enough to elimate the battleground and editwarring that has characterised so much of your recent behaviour on wiki. If that's not going to change then unblocking you is ultimately going to be a waste of your time and other editors' effort. I was planning to unlock your email once it was clear that you were in control but based on what you have said I'm going to leave the conversation here until we have made some progress. Spartaz 09:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

"The fundamental problem is whether you can change the way you react to disagreement enough to eliminate the battleground and editwarring that has characterised so much of your recent behaviour on wiki." - I beg to differ, that is not the fundamental problem I am just a commoner with no real power, the fundamental problem is whether you admins can change the way you react to disagreements in a manner that is adequate to eliminate the obvious distrust inculcated in the hearts and minds of the editors who are victimized by your vindictive and autocratic mentality that has characterized so much of your (some of the admins I've encountered lately) recent behavior on wiki. Some overly harsh and immensely inconsiderate actions are what goaded me to lose my calm, I should not have lost my calm anyway but that's the crux of it. This sort of pathetic attempts to rationalize otherwise disgusting behavior depresses me. Mr T 11:40, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

{Oh and your AE will resume where it left off if we are able to reach agreement Spartaz 09:30, 30 June 2013 (UTC)}※

• When I offered to start working towards your unblock, I had assumed that Bwilkins would be amenable to this based on his statement ahead that he would not block you for the email you sent him. It appears that this was an incorrect assumption ※. On that basis, we seem to have no valid on-wiki way to move forward as I am not prepared to unblock you unilaterally and I am also unwilling to publicly publish the email you sent me to allow an on-wiki consensus to develop. On that basis, you have two options. You can contact UTRS or BASC where any request to be unblocked can be dealt with in accordance with the privacy policy. If you were interested in my opinion, I would suggest that you go directly to BASC as they can overrule admins and UTRS would still need a community discussion. I am genuinely sorry it has come to this but we wouldn't be here if you hadn't sent the emails. I wish you all the best for the future. Spartaz 11:01, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

Facepalm ※ I think you should block me out of this talk page again. That would be the best way forward. As it seems from Bwilkins' comments, his mind is already made up, his thinking doesn't seem to conform with WP:NOTPUNITIVE. But then again I never expected any better. I sent an email to Brad which may have been a tad opprobrious, but I should be indefinitely deprived of the right to edit the XIV based on "the contents of the e-mail .. alone" even though Brad himself concedes that I'm "trying to do right". Wow! Typical case of megalomania, if you ask me. What right does he have to presume that this behaviour is a pattern that could not have been avoided. Or will not be rectified? Like I said, I am not in a position to want to do anything about it. XIV is a perfect example of adminocracy and certainly I alone cannot do shit. I can only hope that I serve as an example of what direction this "experiment" of a project is headed. Mr T 11:40, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

When he is amenable you're not and now when you're amenable he is not. Why can't you just tell me what it actually is? You guys don't want to allow me to edit. You're offended by the emails and now you want to seek revenge. Well, good luck with that. Now you, in a typical pharisaical manner, excuse yourself of the terrible injudiciousness and lack of effort to correct it? Enjoy your adminhood. This is why I think comparisons are indispensable to the proof of admin-partiality. Mr T 11:51, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

Revenge? No. You were not venting, you were abusive. I'm a volunteer here - as are you. If you were a volunteer at the Boy Scouts and you pulled another volunteer into another room and swore at them, called them disgusting names, abused them. And verbally attacked them you would not be a volunteer there anymore. In fact, if you did that to me in person, I'd be laying charges against you - and I would win. Your actions were unwarranted, and you seem to think that they should be instantly forgiven ... even though you're not asking for forgiveness. On what planet do you believe such vitriol is appropriate? This project is an electronic workspace - the same rules for the real world apply here (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:07, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

"I'm a volunteer here - as are you." - but deep down there is a big difference between your capabilities and my capabilities, isn't it? You are an almighty Admin who has no clue what he is really supposed to do, OTOH I am just an angry helpless fool who couldn't hold it off any longer. I am an imbecile, not as cunning and adroit in sophistry as you guys are perhaps, I tell it as I see it. Thus, I am very susceptible to baiting. It's too late but I have come to realize that forthright assertions are discouraged both in articles and discussions (but we are supposed to accept it when somebody's pal does it... gets unblocked again and again). It doesn't really suit my style of articulation which, more often than not, redounds to my disadvantage.
"On what planet do you believe such vitriol is appropriate?" — on a virtual space where admins try to rationalize their own misconducts and imprudence. On a virtual space where people are robbed of their freedom of expressing what they think as iniquitous treatment. Need I go on?? This sort of double-standard needs to stop right now. Use your head. From my past experience with you, I don't expect you would understand my frustration. I have very little tolerance for idiotic statements or chicaneries.
So just end everything by blocking me out from this talk page again. Mr T 12:19, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

No. I'm not an "almighty admin"; I'm a human being - and as I have continually treated you like one - even recommending that you be provided the chance to request an unblock, when the community thought otherwise. As such, I expected to be treated like a human being as well. Look, I don't follow your edits - I don't when and where you've created complaints, and even if I did, I'm under zero obligation to post there. I don't agree with all of your edits, and I don't take sides on disputes unless there's a good reason to do so. What I don't agree with most, however, is how you instantly attack people - even those of us who have TRIED to extend an olive branch. Or show some degree of goodwill. That is unacceptable, and you continue to do it. You're claiming some form of admin abuse from someone ... but have neither provided links to any, or attempted to prove any. Every action taken against you has been done to protect the project from your anger. It's not those half-dozen admins who have fucked up, it's you. I really hoped you would take some time away to re-think your approach to the other human beings on this project. I DO think you have things to add to this project, but we cannot accept the bullshit that comes with it. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:46, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

• *sigh* Clearly this isn't helping anyone - not least yourself. I have turned off your talkpage again. You can email BASC without needing your talkpage. I'm very sorry that I tried to find a way out of this situation for you. Spartaz 13:13, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

• Spartaz, you are not really helping matters with your manner of discussion and revoking his talk page access without serious need. Nothing Mr. T has said on this talk page ever warranted revoking access and that action has only inflamed the situation.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:22, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

• I originally locked off the talkpage because MrT was becoming increasingly angry and I was concerned that he would do himself some damage. Had he left things where they were, his original block would have been almost expired and the matter would have been over. There is no way that I could have predicted what MrT did next and I'm certainly not going to take lessons or lectures based on 20-20 hindsight. If you think its so easy, why don't you take over? Spartaz 03:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)※

I dunno. The unfortunate emails appear to have been a consequence of Mr Ts normal lines of communication being cut. Ok, I understand the reasoning, let the Ed have a chance to chill and reflect. I have seen it deployed as part of Admins' initial response to a situation. But it does not always work. If an Ed is majorly (and temporarily) angry, it can just build frustration. It is a difficult call, attempting to weigh up often an unknown Eds temperament and history, and reconciling that with the WP related issue. Mr T, you have seriously lost your temper here with the whole "system". Just think before you type mate. Try to unpick one issue at a time, and this is the time to think and talk like a Q.C.. Keep calm, and tackle the issue, not the personality. That is why I am steering away from edding controversial issues at this stage in my development here. I find perspective is the first thing I lose, apart from my lighter. Cheers all. Hopefully all helping in good faith can unpick this issue and find a less stressy way forward. Irondome (talk) 22:35, 30 June 2013 (UTC)※

MrT, you need to look at the bigger picture here because you're in danger of getting kicked out by the system. You need to focus on a three step process as the way forward. First, get access to your talk page. Second, get unblocked. Third, get the ban lifted. Personally, I will support you in all three steps because I think you are a good and useful editor but the impetus has to come from you. I think Bwilkins has accurately pointed out the problem, that you need to recognize that we're all volunteers here, that we're all acting in good faith, and that angry accusations and abusive behavior doesn't help the site. You should acknowledge that via email to both Bwilkins as well as Spartaz. The block itself is not that serious. A commitment that you will not violate the ban along with a statement that you thought the ban applies only to article space would have been more than enough to get the block lifted and still might be enough to do so as long as it is presented in a straightforward fashion and without ascribing motives to anyone. Once these two steps are done, the ban discussion can proceed at arbcom. You might find that you have more support for the ban being lifted than you think but you need to be straightforward in your reasoning and should try not to drag other editors into the discussion. All this has to come from you, so please do think about it. --regentspark (comment) 00:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)※

None of you guys are able to properly comment on this because you haven't seen the emails that MrT sent. The only reason that I have not opened a wider discussion on this situation is because to do so would require publishing the emails and that would be a breach of the foundations privacy policy. The appropriate venue for that oversight is for MrT to email the BASC and seek overview that way. I honestly don't know how they will react to any request. In the real world anyone sending the email I received in a workplace situation would have been suspended on the spot and in my workplace I'd be astonished if they were not dismissed so this isn't just your common-place angry ventogram. Spartaz 03:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)※

I think we all get that Spartaz. What I'm trying to do is to help Mr. T establish a path back. That path, imo, starts with a clear statement to you and Bwilkins acknowledging the inappropriateness of his email and acknowledging the volunteer nature of this venture along the lines of what Bwilkins says above. I doubt if BASC will restore talk page access without some such acknowledgement. Whether that will work or not is a different question but a helping hand never hurts. --regentspark (comment) 15:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)※

The case is already with BASC - I was asked for the email this afternoon - so I think we should just let the professionals to deal with this. Spartaz 16:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)※

Hmm...they didn't ask for my 3 (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)※

I suggest that Mr T, publishes his email here, to stop speculation about its contents and apologises for its contents, (assuming based on comments above that they are bad). Yogesh Khandke (talk) 11:32, 4 July 2013 (UTC)※

He cannot because talk page access has been blocked. - Sitush (talk) 11:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)※

(talk page stalker) What Sitush said. For what it's worth, if it's worth anything, I'm happy to help out in any way I can with most unfortunate situation. Peter in Australia aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)※

Ah, sorry, I've just remembered that I am persona non grata on this talk page. - Sitush (talk) 12:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)※

The situation is very fluid and confusing, so he's been blocked from editing his talk page again. How does he then communicate with XIV now? Assuming he wishes to have the email made public and apologise etc.? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)※

Perhaps he needs to write here. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)※

Yes, he has already been directed there, and it's my understanding that it's already in-progress. Even someone with a talkpage lock can always e-mail BASC (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)※

Would it be possible for him to use "Ticket Request System" to request unblocking his talk page access? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)※

There is nothing to stop him asking the BASC to unlock his talk page as an interim measure while the block appeal is working its way but because of the privacy issues around the emails he sent, this probably isn't something for UTRS. Disclosure of the emails can only be made to a functionary per the foundation privacy policy and that's beyond the pay grade of the UTRS system. Spartaz 19:08, 5 July 2013 (UTC)※

Thanks Spartz, but I had a look at BASC, and the links there require access to XIV's email function. I understand that Mr. T's emailing privileges have been revoked? Would he be able to use BASC? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)※

If you follow the conversation above you will see that I have already commented that BASC are already engaged. I am not party to their discussions with MrT. Spartaz 08:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC)※

Is there any way editors would know the status of Mr. T's appeal to BASC? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 06:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)※

No. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)※

Talk page access restored※

On behalf of WP:BASC, I have restored Mrt3366's talk page access. Here is a copy of the relevant part of the email I sent him:

※ I have spent some time reviewing your appeal and the discussions it has spawned, and I have come to the following decision:

• You will remain blocked.
• You will remain topic-banned.
• Your email access will continue to be disabled
• Your talk page access will be restored.
• Your appeal to us is suspended.

If you wish to make an unblock request to the community, you must disclose to them the text of the emails you sent to various users.

Please note that this is a decision by an individual arbitrator, and as such per our procedures, if another Arbitrator objects to my decision, it may be vacated and the matter referred to the full Committee for discussion. ※ Sincerely, NuclearWarfare ArbCom

I hope this helps the rest of the community. Please contact me if you have any questions. NW (Talk) 18:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)※

Thank you very much for restoring the talk access. This would give me a chance to clarify many things.
"Your appeal to us is suspended." — May I know what appeal? AE appeal is suspended, that is a major setback. And why is it suspended? Is that the only way?
"If you wish to make an unblock request to the community, you must disclose to them the text of the emails you sent to various users." — again, why? How is that a necessary precondition for my future unblock requests? Just to clarify, I am not particularly inclined on disclosing the contents of the emails. Obviously as User:The Devil's Advocate rightly pointed out, the talk-block gave “the situation an Orwellian boot-to-face feel to it” and seemed abso-bloody-lootely punitive in nature. In the heat of the moment, I said many things in those emails some of which I do regret. Yes, I concede, that was a bad approach. But I don't understand how does it necessitate the disclosure of the contents of emails? I am saying that I will not repeat it ever again.
It is written above that "this is a decision by an individual arbitrator" but you also claimed that "we have indeed been considering your case." — I would like to know the opinions of other arbitrators especially since you're not speaking on their behalf and also to what extent does this have potential to impact the prospects of my future on wiki? Mr T 07:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

"Your email access will continue to be disabled" — I will not misuse my email access ever again, can I regain that access please? Mr T 07:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

The appeal I referred to was the appeal to the ban appeals subcommittee regarding your indefinite block. As we explained, BASC does not hear appeals of topic bans via email. The full Arbitration Committee does hear those appeals via email, but only in conjunction with hearing appeals of indefinite blocks upon referral from BASC, or publicly at WP:A/R/A (a precondition for which is being unblocked). The Committee hears appeals only rarely when the community has not yet had the chance to review the issue.
The community cannot hear appeals without knowing the full circumstances behind what necessitated the block. Taking your word for it that you will not repeat it doesn't do much good if they don't know what the bad thing was in the first place, and they might wish to craft additional restrictions based on the contents of what you wrote. The Arbitration Committee has copies of the emails, and should you not wish to disclose them, we can go back and review it. As I said though, BASC very rarely actually overturns a community block (I believe in Q1 2013, the figure was 3/43, and 2 of those were referred to the full Committee).
When I said "we", I may have been hasty and/or confused your situation with another appellant. Only one other Arbitrator reviewed your appeal and posted his or her thoughts to the mailing list, which was a recommendation to decline your appeal. I wouldn't want to speak for him or her, but I would imagine that I both looked over this situation in more detail and was more lenient than he or she would have been. I cannot speak to how our decision will affect an {{unblock}} request on your part, as I do not know.
And no, right now I do not feel comfortable restoring your email access. NW (Talk) 12:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

• Comment: Mr T: I think your AE appeal has been suspended as you are not able to participate in it directly. I don't know how to react to your reluctance to share your email. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※
• Thanks NW for the status update. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※
  • "NW": You write Taking your word for it that you will not repeat it doesn't do much good if they don't know what the bad thing was in the first place, and they might wish to craft additional restrictions based on the contents of what you wrote., I don't know how this works since "Mr T" has expressed regret. Don't we have a "preventive and not punitive" policy? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:07, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※
    • Purely hypothetically, imagine if the emails were filled with racial slurs. The community would certainly be justified in saying "we do not accept your expressions of regret; wait six months and try again." Now, my hypothetical does not apply in this circumstance, but the community has to judge the evidence for itself. NW (Talk) 13:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※
      • Wouldn't that be punitive? He says he is wrong, he regrets, he undertakes not to repeat, is a six month wait justified except to punish him for his emails. I don't say that he ought not to be punished if the offense is grave, but always it has been emphasised that action on XIV is preventive and not punitive, so I don't see an adherence to that policy in this case. That is how I see it. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※
        • (I EC'd earlier and this is the only place I can thread my comment and continue to make sense) "preventative not punitive" doesn't really cut it when the behaviour being sanctioned is as far away from the expected norms as this was that the only possible consequence is to remove that editor's participation in the project. Frankly, the only sense of regret that I'm getting from MrT is that he regrets the consequences of his actions rather than the actual actions themselves. I'd suggest that any consideration of how sorry he really is and how that should absolve him from his actions can only be done in conjunction with the email that he sent me via Bwilkins and full disclosure of what he actually sent. Until this emerges - and that's purely MrT's decision - no-one who is not privy to the contents of those emails is able to make any informed judgement about this matter. I strongly suggest that the peanut gallery butt out as the uninformed speculation and "what ifs" are actually not doing anyone any good. Thanks. Spartaz 17:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※
        • The idea that sanctions are preventative and not punitive does not necessarily imply that once a person says "I won't do that again, honest" we must unblock. To do so, we need to be sure that the appellant is actually able and willing to follow through on his commitment. In this case, despite previous assurances, Mr T has shown that his conduct, when editing Indian topics, is often problematic. For that I'm hesitant to support an unblock (for those wondering, I was the other arb who voted to decline his appeal). Salvio 13:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※
        • "should you not wish to disclose them, we can go back and review it." — please feel free to review it. I encourage you to review it. With all due respect, at this moment I do not wish to make them public. As far as my knowledge goes, it didn't contain any racial slurs. I have never denied the opprobriousness of some of the lines the emails contained, like I said I felt utterly subjugated, victimized, even oppressed to a certain extent and obviously, I was irate when I wrote the emails, I won't do it again. Mr T 14:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

"we need to be sure that the appellant is actually able and willing to follow through on his commitment" - Salvio, Sir what must I do to assure you that I will keep my word?
"Mr T has shown that his conduct, when editing Indian topics, is often problematic" - we are not talking about my topic ban, just yet. I am talking about the indefinite block from editing each and every article. If I may be so bold, Salvio, I think you're taking something out of context and using it to imply something that is, at best, a prediction or hypothesis.
"for those wondering, I was the other arb who voted to decline his appeal" - I see. Mr T 14:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

I have asked BASC to reconsider your appeal. We will let you know of the outcome within two weeks, hopefully sooner. If you don't hear from us by then, please contact us. NW (Talk) 13:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)※

The appeal has been denied. NW (Talk) 12:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)※

• Comment: I don't know what was in those emails but, fairly obviously from the discussion above, they were toxic in content. Given that, it is understandable that Mrt doesn't want to make them public. Perhaps it would be possible to selectively let a few admins review the emails and see if it is possible to craft out a path for MrT back? I'm thinking of admins like Boing, Drmies, Dennis and perhaps a couple of others. But, as I said, I don't know the contents of the email so this is just a thought and assumes that MrT is willing to let others see the emails. --regentspark (comment) 14:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

I believe that Boing and Drmies are no longer part of the admin corps.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

You're right - what the heck is going on? Though, from Bwilkins' comment below, it appears that the contents of the email are beyond toxic so my suggestion is likely moot. --regentspark (comment) 15:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

• (edit conflict)Maunus please don't post comments on my talk, I am saying this because a comment from me about you may seem as a violation of my topic ban as was in the case of my comment on Darkness Shines, I am still unsure of the rules for which I was blocked by Spartaz for the first time in this episode, so if I let you comment here I run a risk of saying something that may be interpreted as a comment about you and might serve as reason to extend my block and beyond, so I will appreciate if you didn't post on my talk until I am unblocked. I know you're trying to help perhaps. I am sincerely requesting you to stop commenting on my talk. Mr T 14:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

Sharing the emails would also mean that making public Mr T's email id, let us wait for Mr T to act. He hasn't said that he won't make them public, he seems to suggest that he would rather not is if it isn't necessary. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

No, the e-mails would be posted with the e-mail address stripped out for privacy reasons. MrT's stuck between a rock and a hard place: the only possible chance of requesting unblock is for the e-mails to be made public, and for MrT to line-by line on each e-mail explain, apologize, and promise to never ever repeat. That's a lot of work. It would also, however, show the lowest base-level of behaviour that he can drop to - which would create a chilling effect on all other editors of the project in the future. No editor - indeed, no human being - should have been attacked in that manner. This may be the internet, but we're people on the other end of the wire and you need to treat us exactly the same as if we were standing in front of you. I could very easily right now take this to ANI to ask for a "community review of the unblock request" - if the community declines, then that would become a de facto ban ... and I can pretty much guarantee that the community would decline an unblock right now. Or, MrT can request BASC/ArbComm deal with his unblock request - that's not likely to succeed either, considering that they have all seen the e-mails. So yes ... rock...hard place. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

I think Mr T ought to come out with the emails to stop speculation and do it before it is done for him. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 15:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

Alternatively you can just stop speculating. The second element of your comment is extremely offensive to those of us who have taken great care to comply with the foundation's privacy policy with regard to MrT's emails. Spartaz 16:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)※

(uninvolved) Those of us who are not privy to the emails should not speculate on their content. I believe that one should accept the decisions of those who have seen them. That said, in my experience of handling unblock appeals (in so far as an admin may, without being a member of Arbcom), continuing to make appeals when block/ban appeals have been exhausted simply demonstrates further that editing restrictions should probably not be lifted. BASC does not restrict appeals only to users who are able to access the XIV email facility. Perhaps the appellant and some others commenting here may wish to read WP:BASC more closely (all of it).Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)※

I don't see why my comments would offend you Spartaz, give me a chance to explain, well we are all volunteers and we have limited time for XIV, out of that time we spend time on Mr T's case, so I was suggesting to Mr T that since the consensus was for him to publish his email or that they would be published with due care, he might himself do it. My opinion is that since he has made a mistake which even he acknowledges, he should be quick and get over with it, I opine that if the contents of the email are disclosed by the authorities, his apology would carry less weight. That is how I see the matter. Spartaz if you still feel offended by the way I think; tell me so. I want Mr T to act and not react in this email matter. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)※

(EC)I have said how many times on this page that we cannot reveal the emails from MrT without breaching the privacy policy? Yet you say we will be revealing them. Your clear implication is that one of us will breach the privacy policy. If that's not what you mean then you need to take a lot more care in your drafting than you have so far. Or alternatively, read what we have written more carefully and actually understand what we mean before wasting time commenting while ill informed. None of your intercessions so far has been helpful to anyone so why don't you butt out and leave MrT to decide for himself where he goes next. Spartaz 07:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)※

@Spartaz: Your "peanut gallery" comment is very hurtful and inaccurate. Why are my edits called irrelevant or insignificant criticism. Why should questions being asked by editors be derided? To be frank, Mr T's treatment after what Mr T has said on this page, and his subsequent block and unblock has been quite fair, I see no reason for being critical. Wasn't it said on this very page by another admin that we as volunteers have the same privileges? I request you to strike those remarks out.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:45, 9 July 2013 (UTC)※

@Spartaz/ @All: "Bwilkins" wrote: "No, the e-mails would be posted with the e-mail address stripped out for privacy reasons." I misread/ read it the way manifest from my reactions to it. Kindly disregard any allusions that I've made to "making Mr T's email" public, if that isn't what he meant. I would have struck out my comments but they are all over the place. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)※

Spartaz, YK, you both need to let this go. YK is making good faith attempt to get MrT back into the system and repeatedly trying to cut him down is not the right thing to do. YK, you and I have made a few suggestions, the people behind BASC are presumably looking at them and they may or may not decide to use them (may not is my guess based on Bwilkins comment). If this doesn't work, MrT always has the opportunity of applying for a clean start after whatever time is required but it is fairly clear that the matter is out of our hands. --regentspark (comment) 13:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)※

Ask the recipients

As far as I know, my emails were very short and didn't contain racial slurs. They were not beyond toxic. If my email is enabled I promise to not abuse it again. I am starting to dislike Spartaz's presence on my talk. I would really like to keep this talk free of any activity for the next few days, I have not requested any public unblock that means I am not yet ready to make the emails visible to public. I need some time alone. I believe these are my prerogatives. If I am forced to undergo further suffering then I really think it is a tad unfair. I thank everybody for their support. Mr T 04:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)※

I'm sorry for this activity when you desire silence, but I have to write this: (1) Your comments regarding Spartaz are unfortunate. Please understand that on XIV one must learn to cooperate with everyone even those who are critical of us. regentspark and I have a long association in which we have been critical of each other, but I am sincerely appreciative of his action above to have risen above our individual differences and said something in my support when he thought I was right or that I meant right. I suggest you strike your above comments regarding Spartaz. (2) See RegentsPark's last comment. As I read it; the only way forward for you, in my opinion, is to post the emails on this page, and appeal for an unblock after expressing regret for those emails, and after assuring that such action from you won't be repeated. I don't see the burning need for email access, it would be easier for you to gain it after you've demonstrated a certain duration of editing in which you don't abuse editors. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 05:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)※

About (1) it's a two-way street. Really I concur with RP's last comment at 13:34, 9 July 2013. Now pleeeease do not stretch this issue any further I am trying to stay away from wiki for a while, so give me some respite. Mr T 08:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)※

		Admiral of the Fleet of the Indian Navy
		Michael is hereby awarded the Indian Navy barnstar of merit for his exceptional contributions to the Indian Navy articles and for his efforts to improve the quality of many of the Indian military articles in general. Thank you very much! Cheers, ƬheStrikeΣagle 07:21, 17 January 2014 (UTC)※

I sincerely hope you resolve the disputes and get back to normal editing soon. Please don't edit the disputed articles and continue your edits to the military articles that really need attention. Thanks, ƬheStrikeΣagle 07:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)※

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect MSRV and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at XIV:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 19#MSRV until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Paul_012 (talk) 09:05, 19 November 2022 (UTC)※

The article François Richier has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No independent sourcing, no evidence of notability (ambassadors are not inherently notable).

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